The head of the Catholic League in NYC this morning, in an interview with Fox News, compared the plight of Christians in America to blacks in South Africa under apartheid.
Um, right. Because Christians in America today are relegated to crap townships, kept out of positions of power, not allowed a fair wage and are discriminated against in every aspect of their lives?
Try not being a christian in America sometime and see how it goes for you. Some places it's not too bad but when I was picking up my hanukah gifts on saturday, I was asked if I was going to wait till christmas. I issued a non-comittal no.
I wanted to add, that it was the first day of hanukah, but was afraid to. Not that I think they're going to start up the Pogroms again in Austin (I have nice neighbors) but I didn't want to have that whole, "You're a Jew? Funny, you don't look Jewish" conversation. And then be known forever after as that Jewish fellow in building 5.
I am curious... becuase I've noticed lately that many Christians (of course, there are many flavors of Christian, so one can't generalize) seem to feel as though they are a minority, and being persecuted, and having their freedoms/rights taken away.
I am not currently Christian, but I was raised as one. My sister is quite devout. My cousins are. I've had conversations with my cousin about her rights being violated when her children were told they could not wear Christian oriented t-shirts to school. You may have seen my post about that in my LJ..or perhaps that was before you and I friended each other?
Anyway, I am certainly sympathetic to anyone who is having their rights violated. And I did feel that perhaps my cousin had a point about the t-shirts.
But, what was this Catholic League person talking about when they made this analogy? I mean... there must be some specific point they were making? and not just a general statment of oppression.. because.. I don't see the connection.. really.
But the thing is.. I HAVE encountered Christian folks with this feeling...(and of course devout followers of other religions as well.. but basically I do consider Christianity as the most common religion in this country).... a fear that they are being singled out for bad treatment becuase of their beliefs. I don't walk in their shoes...so it's not fair for me to say it's not so.
I can't speak for Pat, or anyone else, only myself.
I used to be a Christian, an Evangelical Christian. I was taught that we *were* being persecuted, that the US and the world were against us just as the Romans persecuted the first Christians. I'm also a Black woman who grew up in a large NorthEastern US city, so...things are *much* better than they used to be, but they aren't where they should be yet, so it was a benchmark.
In my teens I started examining what I was being told. Most of the examples of "oppression' I was told about were actually mere disagreement or diversity of opinion; the teaching of evolution, the public acknowledgement of other holidays in December besides Christmas, polite refusals to listen to evangelism, these are *not* oppression. I compared my experience as a Christian with my experience as a Black girl; Christianity was *everywhere* in the US, often assumed to be the default, whereas being Black often made me unusual or unique in the places where I found myself (such as boarding school). Being a Christian tended to help me relate to people I didn't know; being Black tended to be an obstacle. And so on.
Eventually I left Christianity for several reasons, not least because I felt that as a Christian I was part of, contributing to, inflicting the same kinds of oppression on non-Christians that I felt myself experiencing as a Black woman. In fact, even worse kinds.
So, that's my take on it. As someone who was a Christian for the first two-thirds or so of her life, I *don't* think Christians are oppressed in the wider US society. There are some segments where I have observed that they are to varying degrees, but not in the US as a whole.
Background: several generations of Lutheran pastors/missionaries; my mom is about to be the latest; ELCA, those are the liberal Lutherans, mainstream
What I think: [Christians] seem to feel as though they are a minority, and being persecuted, and having their freedoms/rights taken away.
Minority, yes. But otherwise? Christians are much better off than Muslims. We aren't automatically considered terrorists! (Tangent: I think we have a moral obligation to help Muslims. That whole freedom of religion thing...) Christians don't have to "specially register", etc. And I've certainly been hearing a lot of horror stories lately.
Everyone has had their freedoms taken away recently. Yay Patriot Act.
It is somewhat disconcerting to get the reaction I do when I tell people that I'm Lutheran. In SF, the dominant religion is probably paganism. Which makes me very much the odd one out. Now I could hide it, but...
Weekends. Working on religious days. What annoys me is that I can't figure out how to get out of working on them. I don't think I can tell a prospective employer "I don't work on Sundays" and not be pressured into breaking it. I can't even figure out how to tell my current employer that I want to get to work an hour later so I can make it to all of the late service! (But then I don't work many hours, and I do kind of need them...) But I know that he'd make fun of me for taking my religion seriously. Since he was raised Lutheran too, I think it disturbs him somehow.
her children were told they could not wear Christian oriented t-shirts to school.
This would offend me. I would be protesting to the school. I doubt it would hold up in a USA court. (I would hope not!)
There's almost some justification for making that statement as an atheist, but as a Christian????? What was this guy on?
I visited south africa during apartheid. It was apalling. I still feel dirty thinking about it. Nothing in the treatment of the majority religion in the US compares to that.
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Ahem.
Grrr,
Thank you, Pat, for seeing this for the bullshit that it is.
A.
growling and shaking her head
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*cough*
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Try not being a christian in America sometime and see how it goes for you. Some places it's not too bad but when I was picking up my hanukah gifts on saturday, I was asked if I was going to wait till christmas. I issued a non-comittal no.
I wanted to add, that it was the first day of hanukah, but was afraid to. Not that I think they're going to start up the Pogroms again in Austin (I have nice neighbors) but I didn't want to have that whole, "You're a Jew? Funny, you don't look Jewish" conversation. And then be known forever after as that Jewish fellow in building 5.
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I am curious... becuase I've noticed lately that many Christians (of course, there are many flavors of Christian, so one can't generalize) seem to feel as though they are a minority, and being persecuted, and having their freedoms/rights taken away.
I am not currently Christian, but I was raised as one. My sister is quite devout. My cousins are. I've had conversations with my cousin about her rights being violated when her children were told they could not wear Christian oriented t-shirts to school. You may have seen my post about that in my LJ..or perhaps that was before you and I friended each other?
Anyway, I am certainly sympathetic to anyone who is having their rights violated. And I did feel that perhaps my cousin had a point about the t-shirts.
But, what was this Catholic League person talking about when they made this analogy? I mean... there must be some specific point they were making? and not just a general statment of oppression.. because.. I don't see the connection.. really.
But the thing is.. I HAVE encountered Christian folks with this feeling...(and of course devout followers of other religions as well.. but basically I do consider Christianity as the most common religion in this country).... a fear that they are being singled out for bad treatment becuase of their beliefs. I don't walk in their shoes...so it's not fair for me to say it's not so.
what do you think?
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I used to be a Christian, an Evangelical Christian. I was taught that we *were* being persecuted, that the US and the world were against us just as the Romans persecuted the first Christians. I'm also a Black woman who grew up in a large NorthEastern US city, so...things are *much* better than they used to be, but they aren't where they should be yet, so it was a benchmark.
In my teens I started examining what I was being told. Most of the examples of "oppression' I was told about were actually mere disagreement or diversity of opinion; the teaching of evolution, the public acknowledgement of other holidays in December besides Christmas, polite refusals to listen to evangelism, these are *not* oppression. I compared my experience as a Christian with my experience as a Black girl; Christianity was *everywhere* in the US, often assumed to be the default, whereas being Black often made me unusual or unique in the places where I found myself (such as boarding school). Being a Christian tended to help me relate to people I didn't know; being Black tended to be an obstacle. And so on.
Eventually I left Christianity for several reasons, not least because I felt that as a Christian I was part of, contributing to, inflicting the same kinds of oppression on non-Christians that I felt myself experiencing as a Black woman. In fact, even worse kinds.
So, that's my take on it. As someone who was a Christian for the first two-thirds or so of her life, I *don't* think Christians are oppressed in the wider US society. There are some segments where I have observed that they are to varying degrees, but not in the US as a whole.
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What I think:
[Christians] seem to feel as though they are a minority, and being persecuted, and having their freedoms/rights taken away.
Minority, yes. But otherwise? Christians are much better off than Muslims. We aren't automatically considered terrorists! (Tangent: I think we have a moral obligation to help Muslims. That whole freedom of religion thing...) Christians don't have to "specially register", etc. And I've certainly been hearing a lot of horror stories lately.
Everyone has had their freedoms taken away recently. Yay Patriot Act.
It is somewhat disconcerting to get the reaction I do when I tell people that I'm Lutheran. In SF, the dominant religion is probably paganism. Which makes me very much the odd one out. Now I could hide it, but...
Weekends. Working on religious days. What annoys me is that I can't figure out how to get out of working on them. I don't think I can tell a prospective employer "I don't work on Sundays" and not be pressured into breaking it. I can't even figure out how to tell my current employer that I want to get to work an hour later so I can make it to all of the late service! (But then I don't work many hours, and I do kind of need them...) But I know that he'd make fun of me for taking my religion seriously. Since he was raised Lutheran too, I think it disturbs him somehow.
her children were told they could not wear Christian oriented t-shirts to school.
This would offend me. I would be protesting to the school. I doubt it would hold up in a USA court. (I would hope not!)
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I visited south africa during apartheid. It was apalling. I still feel dirty thinking about it. Nothing in the treatment of the majority religion in the US compares to that.
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This organization is not an official part of the Catholic Church. If anyone wants to check them out, they're at http://www.catholicleague.org/
Their founding reasons seem good enough -- something like the Anti-Defamation League -- but today's statement is just nonsense.
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