Bigotry

[pat]

I have seen this link making the rounds. My answer, as a transplanted Southerner?

Fuck you, too.

Jimmy Carter is a Southerner. As are Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and John Edwards.

On the other side, Orrin Hatch is from Utah. Arlen Specter and the notoriously homophobic Rick Santorum are from Pennsylvania, which last time I checked was above the Mason-Dixon line. The anti-choice zealot Henry Hyde is from Illinois. Alan Keyes may or may not be from Illinois, but he's not from the South in any case. John McCain, who whatever you think of him supported Bush in his reelection, is from Arizona. One of Bush's most vocal fans this fall was Rudy Guiliani, former mayor of New York. And as for the Governator, who spoke at the Republican National Convention.... well, you know. And as can be seen from this map, Republicans hold sway far and wide outside Dixie.

Bigotry based on geography is bigotry nonetheless. I think geekchick said it best: "Make no mistake, those of you ranting about moronic Southerners are every bit as bigoted and intolerant as anyone painting you as a "liberal, elitist, babykilling traitor", so get the f*ck down off your high horse."

Oh, and for anyone saying "lighten up, it's all in fun"? Let me ask you, would you ever make a racist joke to a person of color, and tell them to lighten up if they objected to it? If the answer to that question is "no," you have no business telling me likewise.

Comments

[purplerabbit.livejournal.com]

I understand. My grandparents were from Tenn. I grew up in Oklahoma. Two of my sisters and their kids still live in Texas. It always amazed me when I first moved to California the assumptions people made about my intelligence and my beliefs.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

"would you ever make a racist joke to a person of color, and tell them to lighten up if they objected to it?"

Of course I would. Do you not make jokes based on the differences of race, religion or ethnicity with your black, hispanic, jewish or recent immigrant friends? I know we do all the time. And if someone were to walk up on one of these exchanges and get offended, we'd all tell them to lighten up. .

Besides though, it's not all in fun. The South is the deciding factor in national politics. Since the Republican Party allied itself with racism and the bible 40 years ago, the only way a Democrat can get elected president is if he's a southerner. You can be from CT like the Bushes or IL like Reagan and be elected if you're a republican but a democrat has to be from the south. Like that's not bigotry?

I'll admit the tone to the fuck the south thing is a bit off-putting but it's really the facts of the thing that make it entertaining to me and they really should be a wake up call to the 'moral values' crowd wherever they are.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

John F. Kennedy was from the South? News to me.

And I think you should note, each of the Southerners I mentioned was elected to statewide office before running for President. (Oh, and I forgot to mention the absolutely wonderful Anne Richards.) As were Hatch, Specter, and Schwarzenegger on the other side. So one would assume that they had the support of the majority of people in their state. There are those, of course, that would argue that John Edwards, being from North Carolina, must not really reflect the views of his naturally bigoted and homophobic state, even though he won the majority of votes when he ran for the Senate.

That's called tossing out evidence which doesn't fit your prejudice.

As far as the "no Democrat can be elected unless they are from the South," the failure of the Mondale and Dukakis campaigns had more to do with their failings as candidates than their geographical affiliations. And being from the South did not help Al Gore, just as it did not help John Edwards in his primary bid for the Democratic nomination. (Of course, in Gore's case, you had a Tennessean versus a Texan, so it might have been a wash.)

And while GHWB was from Connecticut, his son was not. Not really. Jeb Bush may be a carpetbagger in Florida, but GWB grew up in Texas, and had a significant presence in the state before he ran for governor.

The South is the deciding factor in national politics. Yep, all we Southerners are just shoving our views down the throats of those Kansans, Ohioans, Missourians, Pennsylvanians. I think that is facetious.

No area of the country has a monopoly on bigotry. None. And it is exactly this sort of crap on both sides that is destroying rational public discourse in this country.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

JFK was elected more than 40 years ago...

It could be argued that the democrat-adopted civil rights movement of the 60s was what turned the south from democrat to republican. Looking at the result maps of recent (post war) presidential elections shows the major shift in the south's political tastes for presidential elections in the 60s, and its hard not to associate that with a backlash against the civil rights movement.

Now of course this doesn't mean that all southerners are slavery-loving bigots, the same way north easterners are not gay commie jews, but it does point to overall tendencies and changed political affiliations.

An invective filled rant, such as the one you pointed to, is not a useful piece of dialog. But there does seem to be a cultural divide in the US. Whether this is north/south or urban/rural or rich/poor is unclear. But it is highly divisive and, since it seems you only make political capital by pandering to the extremes (as Rove did in the election), is likely to continue and get worse.

This should worry anyone looking at the future of the US.Getting cuaght up in the slanging match of blame and hate is just a distraction from the underlying issue.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

You're right, JFK was more than 40 years ago -- 44 to be exact. But it seemed to me that that 40 year time limit was rather arbitrary. A more relevant time period would be post-Watergate -- from the 1976 election. Which would still mean that the only Democratic presidents were Southerners.

It could be argued that the democrat-adopted civil rights movement of the 60s was what turned the south from democrat to republican. Looking at the result maps of recent (post war) presidential elections shows the major shift in the south's political tastes for presidential elections in the 60s, and its hard not to associate that with a backlash against the civil rights movement.

I'm not sure to what extent the South's voting records in the 60s have much relevance here. As I pointed out, Carter, Clinton, Gore, and Edwards, not to mention Bob Graham of Florida (http://www.issues2000.org/Bob_Graham.htm) and Anne Richards of Texas, won statewide office in the 70s, 80s or 90s -- well after the civil rights movement impacted Southern politics.

You and I are in complete agreement about the divisive nature of political discourse going on: it scares the hell out of me, frankly.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

Living outside the US I generally only see things on the national stage. I don't know how things differ when it comes to state politics. The impression I have is that state and national parties can be very different. This might well apply on civil rights issues, with the national party being punished but state parties not being seen as part of the issue.

I think it is very interesting that state governers, of whatever party, tend to do better in presidential elections than members of congress. Was Kennedy the last senator to become president, or was that Nixon? Are there any democratic state governers with enough gravitas to make a run in 2008?

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I don't know if he would be successful, but I'd love to see Howard Dean run again.

The last senator to be President -- in fact, barring the elder Bush, the last non-governor to be elected -- was Nixon. LBJ had been a senator, as well.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

Pardon my ignorance... where was Dean governor?

The lack of senators winning the presidency in recent years would suggest that the democrats should be looking outside the senate. Maybe Hilary should aim for VP in 2008, and only go for the big job in 2016, since it seems that senators now have to be VP before they can be P...

[geekchick]

Dean was governor of Vermont for five terms.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

As to divisiveness...

If this is to be believed:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wayfairer/456769.html

then it seems that some poeple's belief systems actively require there to be a division, an us and them, which is defined in rigidly theological terms.

Creating divisions is a well known ploy in establishing short term political gain (communist vs. captalist, tutsi vs hutu, black vs white, catholic vs protestant to name but a few), but its a long term recipe for disaster. If the current divisiveness is religiously motivated, though, and is an active part of the belief system, I can't see an easy way of breaking out of this until there is an absolute disaster.

I don't have much insight into this belief system. Is what is being said in the linked post true? Are things as bad as it suggests?

If so, then some very bad shit is on the way, since there really is a crusade going on, in the minds of many people.

Oh, you are aware of course...

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

That many states outside the South, including Ohio, Oregon, Utah, North Dakota and Michigan (all passed in the most recent election), have anti-gay marriage amendments to their state Constitutions? I mean, you might discount Utah because it is Mormon, but Michigan? Oregon? California, being the vanguard of social change that we are, passed ours *years* ago.

The Ohio amendment is particularly virulent, outlawing not only same sex marriage *and* civil unions, but any contractual arrangments that would create the same legal rights as marriage.

Re: Oh, you are aware of course...

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Actually, I sit corrected: Prop 22 only changed the California's legal code, not the state's Constitution.

[king-tirian.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't defend a racist joke or whatever, but I don't think that the thesis of the rant was that all Southerners are stupid, and certainly not that all non-Southerners are noble.

It seems to me that it was saying that if neocons want to change the world to meet their goals of more personal responibility, enforcing the family unit, and decreased reliance on federal money, that they should focus their efforts on precisely the states in which they already have a strong presence, because they're not a nationwide problem and the hotspots are pretty much exactly lined up where the Republicans hold power.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't defend a racist joke or whatever, but I don't think that the thesis of the rant was that all Southerners are stupid, and certainly not that all non-Southerners are noble.

Whatever its author's intentions, the rant was couched in intolerant and bigoted language.

....where the Republicans hold power." Which would include large chunks of the West and Midwest.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

"Whatever its author's intentions, the rant was couched in intolerant and bigoted language."

It seems to me that you're purposefully ignoring the substance of what was said in the piece just to make an argument out of the style of the piece. Seems like two totally different arguments to me.

I thought for a long time we were talking about the substance of it and your responses didn't quite make sense but now I see. I won't argue with you on style, it's too subjective. I liked it but I like a lot of things that are couched in intolerant and bigoted language. Except Lenny Bruce because a lot of his later stuff just wasn't that funny.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Language and style matters. It is hard for me to listen carefully when I am being called a "dickhead."

However, those facts he trumpets... Let's take that one about where tax dollars go: those red states that get more money than they take in? They include Alaska, North Dakota, Montana, West Virginia, and South Dakota. Bastions of the Confederacy, there.

You want to talk about the TVA? Fine. But then we should also talk about the federal water projects out west.

Massachusetts is such a bastion of gay rights that one of its senators supports an amendment to ban same-sex marriage. (That would be Kerry -- I have no idea what Kennedy's position is.) And then there are those bastions of gay rights such as Oregon and Michigan.

Oh, and that cheap shot about Florida and the hurricanes? What about all those people in Illinois and along the upper Mississippi and Missouri who live in flood plains? Or the entirety of Tornado Alley, only part of which (Texas) is in the South? And let's not forget California. Although earthquakes are infrequent, severe fires and mudslides most decidely are not.

As far as the divorce statistics goes, he's right. The top ten states with the lowest divorce rate are not in the South (although he fails to mention that Louisiana is at number 11). Of the ten worst, only four are Southern states: he may count Nevada an aberration, but what about Idaho, Wyoming, Indiana and Oklahoma?

I could go on, but I have to go make dinner.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

However, those facts he trumpets... Let's take that one about where tax dollars go: those red states that get more money than they take in? They include Alaska, North Dakota, Montana, West Virginia, and South Dakota. Bastions of the Confederacy, there.

Exactly! Because he's not attacking you. He's attacking Republicans!

You may laugh or be horrified by this but I honestly thought that Indiana and Oklahoma were part of the confederacy. Cuz they sho nuff don't fit in with the North. Then again neither does most of Illinois.

Just goes to show you, the healing hasn't begun. Now we're not only squabbling across the aisles but across the country. Oh for shame!

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

So call the website fucktherepublicans.com. Or fuckthestupidhypocrites.com

As far as the confines of the South, I was always taught that it was the Confederate states (N.C., S.C., FL, AL, AR, GA, LA, MS, TX, VA -- note: WV split off from them to remain with the Union -- TN) as well as Kentucky. I might grant you Oklahoma and WV as Southern states, but *only* if you also include Maryland as a Southern state. (Maryland has the ninth lowest divorce rate in the country.) Indiana and Illinois? The Midwest.

You may find all this a hoot. But for people who have spent a lot of time being treated like they were stupid, racist, closeminded or all three simply because they speak with a Southern accent, it's not really a laughing matter.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

The whole South thing is a mystery to me. I mean most of the south is actually the east, most of the midwest is pretty far east too. then the sw starts in the middle. *shrug* I know Illinois isn't actually in the south I'm just saying that outside of the Chicago area, it becomes very rural, white and christian. Which to a lot of urbanites, feels threatening and southern. The joke in Chicago is that the mason dixon line might as well start at Congress (the southern end of the loop right in the middle of the city).

As for the whole southern chip on the shoulder, I think that a lot of the times Southerners just take northern brusqueness personally and think it's because they're southern. I mean I have seen people assume someone was stupid because they spoke southern so it's not like that doesn't happen. But I've seen it happen even more where the southerner thinks they're the butt of the joke and they just aren't. Of course, once they start going off (and I mean the ones who really go off) about how northerners assume they're stupid and closeminded, they become right.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Go you.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Thank you :)

[sisterfish125.livejournal.com]

Interesting point that most of the "mainstream" media have missed. The city of Atlanta (i.e., Fulton and DeKalb counties), Augusta/Richmond county, Columbus/Fort Benning area, and Savannah/Fort Stewart areas all went to Kerry in the election. City of Atlanta. The majority of the metro areas in Georgia...my county went about 45% for Kerry.

There are a lot of folks out there that the GOP has caught with their platform...and here, the GOP used the "threat" of gay marriage to win a lot of the regional elections.

Sometimes I hate this state...

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I think the rural/urban split is far more significant in this country than regional splits. As far as the anti-same sex marriage issue, that was used in many states outside the South to mobilize voters. (Interestingly enough, there are places like Oregon and Michigan where the state went for Kerry and the anti-gay marriage amendments still passed.)

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

I think that's true in most states. I mean Illinois would be a republican state if it weren't for Chicago. I think, though I am less sure, that the same holds for NY and NYC. Here in Austin, we regularly vote the opposite of the rest of the state but we're still an awfully small little city.

[porcinea.livejournal.com]

What you said!!

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

You make interesting points - bigotry and homophobia aren't exclusive to the South, and anyone who does assume that all Southerners are inbred rednecks clearly have biases of their own.

Having said this, I as a native Georgian find myself picking on the more ignorant elements of the people I grew up with far, far more than anyone I know who ISN'T from below the Mason-Dixon. I think part of this is a defense mechanism on my part - I always think I've got my friends convinced that there is civilization down there, then some state legislature pulls out something like the Confederate flag or teaching Creationism in schools and I have to start my arguments all over again....

[ladysea.livejournal.com]

I am here to proclaim my love for you!

THANK YOU!

I read that page and was so mad I could not make known my frustration.

So thank you again!

[gloriajn.livejournal.com]

Thank you for expressing the very same thing I wanted to express, but didn't know how to. Also, I thought that my discomfort was "my issue".

I get so tired of liberal white people offering me their condolences and sympathy because I'm originally from Mississippi! I don't need sympathy. And as I posted in geekchick's journal, I experienced way more racism when I lived in Portland, Oregon.