Speaking of belief structures...

[pat]

I have a question for my pagan friends that has been bugging me since early December.

I know that many of the "Christmas" symbols: trees, wreaths, holly, mistletoe, etc. were appropriated from pagans. (Even the date... wasn't it originally the day bulls were sacrificed to Mithras?) There are some Christian sects who reject such things because of their pagan origins.

And my question, asked in all seriousness, sincerity, and with the humble recognition of my own ignorance is... how do pagans feel about this? Do they snicker? Are they offended? Angered? Exasperated? I know that when people appropriate Christian symbology for other uses it makes me at best uncomfortable and at most angry depending upon the nature ot the (mis)use.

And does it depends upon the nature of the pagan belief? I've come to understand that there are many differing varieties of paganism, and I am unfortunately ignorant on the differences between them.

Comments

[lysana.livejournal.com]

Yes, it can depend on the pagan. I am one who finds comfort in seeing older ways carried forward regardless of their new trappings for the most part, though I reserve the right to chuckle behind my hand at the redactions some sects of Christianity worked in to explain some of the pagan rituals (a Russian Orthodox friend firmly believes the Christmas tree is the symbol of the martyrdom of some saint at the hands of Viking heathens or somesuch). Being of a tradition that is based on one of the few European peoples who did not suffer from conversion by violence (Irish), it's easier for me to accept the syncretism. My ancestors did it with full and clear intention for centuries. I also didn't convert to paganism as a rebellion from Christianity, so I bear the faith less ill will than some neo-pagans.

And just to be a pedant, December 25 or days near it meant different things to different traditions. There was indeed the birth of Mithras, and also a Roman sun god named Sol Invictus was celebrated around that time. Winter solstice practices from some of the more northern European faiths also have their influence (the greenery and Yule log, for two examples).

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I, too, have no problem with syncretism. Christians who go to great lengths to "disprove" or reject any pagan influence on Christian practice or symbolism strike me as intellectually faulty.

And thanks for the information about December 25.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

my question, asked in all seriousness, sincerity, and with the humble recognition of my own ignorance is... how do pagans feel about this? Do they snicker? Are they offended? Angered? Exasperated? I know that when people appropriate Christian symbology for other uses it makes me at best uncomfortable and at most angry depending upon the nature ot the (mis)use.

I find it amusing, for the most part -- yet another example of the lack of knowledge about the history of those traditions. I have also known pagans who are exasperated, and a very few who are offended (usually the fundamentapagan types). It depends on the pagan and on the tradition they follow.

My approach is eclectic, meaning I take what works from each tradition. In fact, although this may surprise people, I even venerate Jesus. I just don't venerate him the way Christians do. I celebrate what he taught during his life. (His death -- er, that's squicky, don't want to go there. Suffice to say my views about that event are very different from that of most Christians I know.)

And does it depends upon the nature of the pagan belief? I've come to understand that there are many differing varieties of paganism, and I am unfortunately ignorant on the differences between them.

Absolutely it depends on the nature of the pagan belief. Take me, an eclectic. Then ask a Gardnerian Wiccan. Then ask an Asatruar. Then ask a Dianic Wiccan. Dig up a Druid and ask them, too. And while you're at it, go find a Greek reconstructionist pagan. Find a family-tradition witch, and ask him too. Toss a kitchen witch into the mix. Then ask a...

It's like asking the same question of a Seventh-Day Adventist, a Methodist, an Episcopalian, a Greek Orthodox Christian, a Gnostic, a liberal nondenominational Christian, a born-again fundamentalist, a Roman Catholic, and a Southern Baptist. They're all Christians, right? Are they going to give you the same answer? Heck no.

Paganism also has many denominations. We just call them "traditions" instead of "denominations." One of the sayings I've heard is "ask three pagans, get five answers." Another one is "Trying to organize pagans is like trying to herd cats."

The best place I can think of for information about paganism is Witchvox. - http://www.witchvox.com -- and I recommend it. Highly.

I hope this helps.

Thanks....

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

This was very helpful. I've been meaning to find out more about the various traditions of paganism, not so much because I am changing my beliefs, but so I can listen respectfully and intelligently when others talk about theirs. I also need to learn more about Eastern religions for the same reasons.

[kiya]

(For what it's worth, "paganism" is about as broad a category as "monotheism"; it has a number of different faiths within it, a good number of which have denominations.)

I think symbols are symbols, they're out there and appropriating them is fair use. It's a thing humans do. Sometimes a symbol will speak to a particular person, and they will adopt it. They may use it differently than the people who used it originally do, but they are entirely able to make it their own and use it as it has meaning for them. Manipulating symbols and rearranging them is one of the things I think of as fundamentally human.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I tend to feel it's none of my concern. The uses that offend me are not the Christian ones, but the racist ones, which have the potential to change the popular perception of a symbol to the point where it becomes difficult for us to use in public any more (the swastika being the prime example).