Can a grammar wizard help me?

[pat]

When I write or speak, I keep finding myself saying "If I were..." or "If he were..." Intellectually, I keep thinking those should be "was", since the verb is singular. (Interestingly enough, I am less likely to use "were" if there is a noun rather than a pronoun in the sentence.)

I'm trying to figure out why I do this. Is there some sort of, I don't know, speculative verb tense?

Comments

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

subjunctive

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Interestingly enough, I learned more formal grammar when I took Latin (which I have forgotten since it's been twenty years since I used it) than I ever learned for English.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

You're just saying that to get me hot.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I was told to talk geography in order to get you hot.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Proper use of the subjunctive mood, and knowing its name, really works for me. I'm not in grammargasm for nothing. ;)

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

(adds additional information to the "how to get Mary hot file", to store in case the information is ever needed.)

[elissaann.livejournal.com]

Yup. Subjunctive! It's a conditional tense.

Here ya go:
http://linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-1997.7/msg00017.html

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Oooh, cool web site.

[runeshower.livejournal.com]

Yes, I believe it's called the subjunctive tense.

Subjunctive Mood

[adriang.livejournal.com]

What you find yourself using is subjunctive mood. The key thing here is that you are talking about a hypothetical circumstance that you think is probably not true. Your use of subjunctive mood implies some degree of doubt, so it's important not to use it in other cases.

If, for example, you don't know if a friend drove ten hours to a concert, you might say, "if he is at the concert, we should be able to find a charge for gas on his credit card." Once you've checked and found no such charge, you would say, "if he were at the concert, we should have been able to find a charge for gas on his credit card."

If you simply don't know, don't use subjunctive mood. If you think it's not true but want to talk about how things would be if it were true, use subjunctive mood.

Adrian

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much how I use it -- although I also use it for future possibilities where the outcome is uncertain: "If I were to go shopping, would it upset you?" Or, in the case that precipitated today's musing: "If D. were to be mainstreamed next year, he would probably need an aide."

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[adriang.livejournal.com]

I'm not absolutely sure, but I think mere uncertainty is not enough. In a sense, subjunctive mood implies that you think the situation in question is unlikely.

In your first example, I would assume from your use of subjunctive mood that you do not intend to go shopping, but that you are curious, anyway, about how I would react. In your second, I would guess that you are telling me that the need for an aide makes mainstreaming unlikely.

Does that make sense?

Adrian

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I disagree. I think the hypothetical nature of those examples calls for the subjunctive.

"If I were to go shopping today, is there anything I could pick up for you?" is a hypothetical case - you haven't decided whether to go or not, you're just proposing that it might happen. The subjunctive mood is correct in that sentence.

"If he were to be mainstreamed next year, he would need an aide" is also hypothetical situation calling for the subjunctive. If the school proposes that he be mainstreamed at his next IEP, that moves the situation out of the hypothetical. So then the exchange might go,

"We'd like to mainstream him next year."
"If he is mainstreamed, he'll need an aide."

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[adriang.livejournal.com]

You may be right. I did some hunting on the web, and there seems to be only vague agreement on the proper use of subjunctive mood. Some assert that subjunctive implies significant doubt, but others think any hypothetical will do. I apparently learned about subjunctive mood from someone who thought substantial doubt was required, but I don't see anything close to general agreement around the internet on that point.

Adrian

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

"If I were a rich man. . . ."

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I think this throws in something else that is confusing my sense of what is right.

"If he is mainstreamed"-- we don't know whether or not it will happen, or how likely it is to happen, but we are *certain* that if it does, an aide will be required.

"If I were a small furry creature from alpha centauri"-- I don't know my Douglas Adams well enough to be certain of what that would imply, or what would flow logically (given adequate knowledge of the right cultural referent), so I would be having to speak much more speculatively-- not only because I am not a small furry creature from alpha centauri, but because I don't know enough about their behavior or attributes to be able to use anything *other* than the subjunctive mood.

I'm feeling more confused, but believe it is possible that I might intuit enough proper grammar in American English to be able to speak and write in a way that is deemed acceptable by MLA, APA, Blue Book or Chicago, though perhaps not all of the above.

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

or you would use the past subjunctive, "If he had been at the concert, we would have been able to find ..." (although I'm not sure about the distinction between should and would).

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[adriang.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I don't remember hearing that wording described as past subjunctive, but it makes perfect sense. Functionally, it seems to work exactly the same as "were" in present subjunctive.

Adrian

Re: Subjunctive Mood

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

Yet another thing that I learned about in Latin or French before realizing that we had it in English too.

[cheshyre]

As far as I remember of what I was taught of grammar:

"If I was" is for things that are plausible/possible.
"If I were" for things that aren't.

"If I was wealthy" vs. "If I were a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri"

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

"If I were a rich man"
deedle-deedle-deedle-deedle-deedle

which of course isn't very plausible given that I'm a woman.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Heh. That's always the first line that occurs to me when I think of the subjunctive.

[xopher-vh.livejournal.com]

No, it should be "if I were wealthy." Not because it's impossible, but because it's contrafactual as things stand now. "If I'm wealthy 50 years from now" is a real conditional. It could come to pass.

The past real conditional can be used in the past tense only in persons other than the first, or in cases of amnesia. This makes a neat contrast between the two moods. Real: "If I killed him, I don't remember it" says that it's possible that the speaker did kill whoever it was, but has no memory of it. Subjunctive: "If I had killed him, I wouldn't remember it" denies the possibility that the speaker killed him, and adds on that no memory would be there even if s/he had.

"If I put my keys on the couch, they're probably inside it somewhere." Searches in couch, doesn't find keys. "If I had put my keys on the couch, they'd be inside it; so I must have put them somewhere else." It's far from impossible or implausible to put the keys on the couch; it's simply contrafactual. But only after checking does it become so.

[xopher-vh.livejournal.com]

Argh. Redundancy. Should read "The real conditional can be used in the past tense only..." Sorry for the inconvenience.

[treacle-well.livejournal.com]

Is there some sort of, I don't know, speculative verb tense?

As others have no doubt already said (I haven't read comments yet), yes. The subjunctive, used for "contrary to fact" statements plus other things.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

It's in the subjunctive.

Conditional, or statements contrary to fact (like "good morning"), expressing a wish or hope.

English has really odd verb structure. Very streamlined, and very complex.

TK