How dare you...

[pat]

I am so furious at a poster in dot_cattiness right now I can barely speak.

You're right, you callous, souless, holier-than-thou b*tch, I did not know anyone personally who lost their lives on Columbia. And you're also right, people die every day. That's tragic, I agree.

But this disaster represented more than these seven people. Bus accidents and train accidents happen... they are random acts of fate. Death comes to us all, in one way or another, at some time.

These people *were* different. They choose a difficult and dangerous task -- one which very few people are capable of doing, or even willing to take the risk to do. And they did this not to wage war or for crass commercialism or for their own personal glory, but to further humanity. (Quick... how many of you can name a current astronaut -- other than the seven who died?) And, even more anonymously, working with them were people on the ground (some of whom my husband *does* know) trying to pursue goals beyond themselves and their country. They were reaching for the stars for all of us. And it is not just Americans: I weep for the Israeli astronaut as much for the Americans. And when the Russians lose cosmonauts in space I grieve them, too.

Those who go into space, and those on the ground who make space flight possible, are in so many ways, among the very best and brightest on earth, regardless of nationality. They work the stuff of dreams into amazing reality.

We've been a part of the NASA family for fifteen years, now. I wince when the unmanned missions go awry, because I know the dedication and love put into them. I weep when a shuttle blows apart because I know what it means for those people to have been there.

And I am angry... angry that a nation so quick to eulogize its dead heroes is so slow to fund program improvements that maybe could have made a difference. No one wants to hear about the space program, until there is a failure. No one wants to pay to develop new -- and safer -- generations of vehicles (at a cost roughly equivalent to developing a new toy for the military) but some are more than willing to grandstand after we've lost seven brave souls.

We are not just grieving the death of Rick Husband, Michael Anderson, William McCool, Kalpana Chawla, David Brown, Laurel Clark and Ilan Ramon, we are grieving our dreams and hopes.

Comments

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that you made the same point you were protesting. If people cared about NASA or knew any astronauts names before this happened, then their expressions of grief would seem heartfelt, real and tragic. However, many (not all) who are wailing about what a tragedy this is, seem like they are just bandwagon jumpers who didn't care two days ago and won't care in a month.

I didn't really care much about NASA before and frankly it would be hypocritical of me to weep now. Which is not to say, i'm not sorry that 7 people died. I am sorry about that. But to me, they were just 7 people out of thousands of people who died yesterday.

For someone like you who is connected to the space program in general and even the people who are "fans", it is perfectly understandable to be extremely upset but it seems like there are an awful lot of people whose reaction is based more on the fact that they were on tv than any depth of feeling.

The only thing I take real exception at in your post is your saying that these were different people. Although everyone is *different* you make it sound like this group is better than all the others who died yesterday. Which seems astoundingly callous. I can only hope that I am interprating this incorrectly because if I had lost someone yesterday, I'd be really pissed off to hear someone say that they weren't as important as the astronauts.

Like I said at the outset, I think your anger at the hypocrisy of a nation that is quick to eulogize but slow to fund; is the same root feeling as those of us who come across as anti-grieving. It seems like this shouldn't be such a cause for disagreement.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I think anyone who dies in the line of duty, where that duty is for something or someone beyond themselves, is *different*. (I will not say "better" because I think all human beings are worthy of dignity and you cannot make comparative judgements about life.) Their passing is worthy of recognition. As I said, all of us meet death at some point. Someone who I did not know who died in a car crash will not affect me the same way as the Columbia seven. I'm sorry if that sounds callous. Furthermore, I have lost loved ones in my life, and I don't think that I would have been upset that they were not universally mourned or that another person was.

BTW, this does not apply just to the Columbia crew: policement and firemen who are killed in the line of duty make me very sad as well, although there is not the sense of personal connection I feel somehow with this.

And I don't think not feeling grief over Columbia is intrinsically callous. I think telling other people what they should or should not feel is arrogant and insensitive. Yes, I feel anger at the neglect of the space program. But I do not view people who express sorrow over Columbia as being "bandwagon jumpers", or their professions of sorrow as being less than genuine. (Perhaps in some of those protestations there is an edge of guilt, who knows?) Furthermore, most of my anger is directed at our government and the media, not at individuals on LJ or elsewhere.

I thought of an analogy in my life: when Princess Diana died, I did not grieve. I thought it was sad, but it really did not affect me. I was a little mystified by the worldwide reaction. My close friend, who did not know the Princess and who wasn't British, spent the morning of Diana's funeral crying. For some reason, Diana meant something to her (and many others) that she did not to me. I did not understand her grief, but I understood that she was grieving and in pain for whatever reason</> and would not have belittled what she was feeling or called it illegitimate.

Re:

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

Essentially I agree with all you said. If I had some connection to NASA, I'd almost certainly feel like you do.

However, I don't really think that anyone is saying that anyone's feelings are illegitimate.

The initial post, however crudely put, was just trying to put things into perspective that in the big picture seven people aren't really much of an addition to the daily tragedy. Which I think that most of us agree on to varying degrees. No one is trying to deny the sadness of saturday morning, we are just saying that it wasn't the sum total of tragedy.

Personally, I don't believe that this nations attachment to celebrities is entirely healthy. I think that a good number of people who are both deeply upset and have not previously given Nasa in general or these astronauts in particular a lot of thought, are a bit hypocritical and melodramatic. To a large degree, we're just going to have to disagree on that point. I was once almost lynched on stage for saying the same sort of things about Chris Farley after he died. (though I was being callous and incendiary then) Although, i hardly think a drug addicted comedian has the same nobility as any one of the Columbia crewmembers; I do think that a portion of the general population's reaction seems to be founded on the same basis of celebrity.

Personally, I get more upset by people who are actually murdered than those who die in the line of duty. I suspect it has something to do with the differing expectations one has when taking on a dangerous job vs. just being there. Also, growing up in Chicago, I've seen so many monsters in uniform that it is sometimes hard to remember that they aren't the majority. At least not anymore. Again though, this is really just a matter of personal taste and neither of us are intrinsically "right" or "wrong" on any objective scale.

I don't think anyone, no matter how crass, is trying to deny anyone their own particular feelings. It seems like that would be impossible to do anyway. But it would appear that many LJers are as intolerant of my opinion as they believe me to be of theirs. Which just seems silly at best. I don't get the sense that you are particularly intolerant but I've seen some suprising sides of other people in the last couple days.

I've really just been trying to diffuse the whole thing because I think a lot of well meaning people are getting angry at each other without good cause. Which doesn't help anything.

Incedentally, your posts on this have been the high water mark for decency. Much of I what I am responding to here are other people's less reasonable approaches to this whole thing. But it seemed more logical to discuss this with someone who actually processes someone else's opinion.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

The initial post, however crudely put, was just trying to put things into perspective that in the big picture seven people aren't really much of an addition to the daily tragedy. Which I think that most of us agree on to varying degrees. No one is trying to deny the sadness of saturday morning, we are just saying that it wasn't the sum total of tragedy.

I think we will have to agree to disagree about the original post. Now matter how many times I read it, I can't see it as anything other than an attempt to label as hypocrites people who feel deeply about this but who were not directly involved.

Something I think the original poster missed in her assumptions was that many of us know that death and tragedy occurs everyday. We do feel sorrow for what is a condition of the world. Tragedy which is out of the ordinary or unexpected (which for a most people this was) hits us harder. Part of it is that people take pride in the oddest things: the fact that some things go right in the world -- which until yesterday morning described the shuttle program for most people -- gives us hope.

rjmwell has some very interesting thoughts on why people react to tragedies which don't affect them directly. (http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=rmjwell&itemid=127258)

Personally, I don't believe that this nations attachment to celebrities is entirely healthy.

Amen to that. If anyone can explain to me why I should care whether Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez get married, I'd be grateful : > Most of the time as a nation we get caught up in glitter and hype, and it is not healthy.

But in my opinion the astronauts were not in the same class as mere celebrities. I think a lot of the shock stems from a sense of a loss of something good and substantive in the world. Something which goes beyond the seven dead astronauts.

Also, in regard to LJ, I don't think that LJers are a representative sample of America. At least, the people I see most are not: they are more likely to follow science and technology issues, and to feel a deeper sense of interest and concern when things go wrong in the world in general. They also tend to talk about what they are feeling... which can seem melodramatic, even when it may not be, necessarily.

Part of it is that really, most of us know so little about the context of people's lives, only the bits and pieces they choose to reveal. For example, it would be entirely possible for someone to be reading my journal for months and *not* know I am married to a NASA scientist. Oh, if they figured out I was married to brian1789 and checked out his journal, they would know, but it is not something I talk about much. It's important to me, but until something like this happens, it tends to reside in the background.

Incedentally, your posts on this have been the high water mark for decency.

Thanks. I appreciate hearing that. I posted this in my journal rather than in dot_cattiness precisely because I was hoping for a less, um, catty discussion.

Re:

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

It's weird, I'm pretty new to the whole LJ experience and once I find employment will probably spend far less time on it than I am now. heh. But I've noticed a real tendancy for people with like viewpoints to basically get together and agree with one another. I've seen a few threads with people taking a stance more like mine and even dot cattiness'where no one thinks about someone with your point of view. Personally, I don't think a one sided discussion is much of a discussion and tend to only pipe in when multiple viewpoints are hashing things out.

I don't think the Columbia crew were "celebrities" like Ben and Jen. At least they weren't while things were going well. But I do think that the newsmedia in general has made them into celebrities post mortem. This doesn't reflect on NASA but on newsmedia. I really think that a lot of people are reacting to that celebratization far more than they are a loss of hope. I suppose, I'd like to be wrong on that point. And some people have clarified their feelings to a very touching level. Unfortunately, it seems like for every person like you, there are two who would rather take cheap or snarky shots. Which is fine, No one has to explain themselves to me. But a cheap shot does not really indicate empathy.

This whole horrible situation may end up bringing public support back to the space program. Which could be a silver lining for you. I think there's a lot of us who, though not traditionally big NASA supporters, would rather see funding go to that than killing muslims or our comedy of errors missle defense attempts. And certainly we're all thinking about NASA far more now than we were on friday.

Anyway, good luck to you and your husband. It's always interesting to hear a different viewpoint.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

But a cheap shot does not really indicate empathy.

You just hit the nail on the head. The original poster in dot_cattiness made a very cheap shot with her choice of words. The follow-up comments weren't that we should all mourn the same, but that those who are mourning should be allowed to without others saying they're wrong. If you read the comments, that is what was being pointed out to her, not that she was wrong by not feeling any loss. But that it's not up to her to decide what's appropriate or not.

This has touched me in that I think the space program is worthwhile, and losing not only 7 lives, but another piece of the dream, saddens me. I will not pretend I mourn for the lost 7 the way their family, friends, and co-workers do. Or the way others who didn't know them are. But I will not say it is wrong of others to mourn the way they do, whether it's going to affect them personally or not.

That's been my point the whole time.